????Michael Findlay (Director of acquavella gallery )

????& Zeng Fanzhi

????Acquavella 畫廊館長 與 曾梵志 對(duì)話

????這些風(fēng)景的作品看起來非常神秘。這是你見到的真實(shí)風(fēng)景嗎？

????不是，是一種妙悟的體驗(yàn)，不是平常的一般認(rèn)識(shí)，也不是理性認(rèn)識(shí)。妙悟是一種顯現(xiàn)、揭示，但這一揭示并不是簡單地將世界本身彰顯出來，而是一種創(chuàng)造，所帶來的是一個(gè)新穎的世界。每當(dāng)感到這個(gè)新穎的世界似曾相識(shí)，既熟悉又陌生，它就潛藏在自己生命的深層。所以，從這個(gè)意義上講，妙悟中的顯現(xiàn)是一種揭示，它只不過將自我生命中本來具有的內(nèi)容顯露出來，它是熟悉的；換言之，妙悟中顯現(xiàn)的世界又是陌生的，它是令人驚奇的，所以在這個(gè)意義上，妙悟又是一種發(fā)現(xiàn)。

????The panoramic landscapes seem mysterious. Do you see them this way? Is there a narrative?

????They are not real landscape. They are rather about an experience of miao wu (marvelous revelation). Miao wu does not fall into the common categories of cognitive process. Neither has it anything to do with Reason. Miao wu is a kind of revelation. Instead of making something obvious Miao wu brought about an unmarked world, which underlies the deep strata of life, both novel and familiar. In this respect, the miao wu type of revelation concerns a disclosure of what is already embedded in the artistic ego – the revealed world is there, but it is unfamiliar and amazing. Miao wu constitutes a restless journey of discovery.

????是什么給了你靈感？你親眼所見的東西還是你的感覺？

????我的創(chuàng)作靈感來自各個(gè)方面。比如童年時(shí)的記憶、我的人生經(jīng)歷，包括聲音、氣味。這些都能給我?guī)矸N種畫面，這些體驗(yàn)是一種妙悟的體驗(yàn)，是兩種不同的境界——物境和悟境。悟前是物，悟后還是物，并非導(dǎo)入玄虛的冥想，仍然有具體的物象顯現(xiàn)。但悟前之物雖然也為我眼中所見，但心與物了不相類，物是物，我是我，物是具體的勾起我的欲望和繁復(fù)意念的物，我是具有強(qiáng)烈意念并要將這一意念強(qiáng)加于物的我，物和我是客觀和主觀的關(guān)系。

????What inspires you more--what you see or what you feel?

????My inspiration comes from every aspects of life, such as my childhood memory, my life experience as well as their sounds and smells. They made for me a variety of mental images. These experiences are kind of Miao wu experience, which consists of two different conditions – the “objecthood” of the subject matter and the “equilibrium” of an artistic ego. The “objecthood” comes both before and after the “equilibrium.” The “equilibrium” thus ends up being less abstract contemplations than tangible images. Although a subject could throw its projection onto the artistic ego it nonetheless becomes the later – the artistic ego and the subject matter are distinct from each other. The subject is merely a trigger for the desires and calculations of the ego. It can only prefect itself through the imposition of the strong artistic ego upon the subject. The subject and the artistic ego belong to two different realms of the external and of the internal.

????在最近的十年當(dāng)中，你的風(fēng)格最大的改變是什么？

????在這十年中，我越來越重視內(nèi)心情感的表達(dá)。隨著情緒的波動(dòng)可以創(chuàng)作出不同的作品。

????What has been the biggest change in your work over the last ten years?

????In the recent decade I became increasingly relying on an introspective representation. My sentimental fluctuation leads to the periodical difference among my works.

????是否有什么特別的歷史作品對(duì)你的發(fā)展起到積極或挑戰(zhàn)的影響嗎？

????我一直抱著學(xué)習(xí)的態(tài)度研究美術(shù)史中大師的重要作品，從Jan Van Eyck到Pablo Picasso，在不同的年齡階段喜歡的藝術(shù)家不同。

????Have any particular historical works of art motivated or challenged your development?

????I have been consistently studying masters’ pieces that are art historically important. I embraced different masters, ranging from Jan Van Eyck to Pablo Picasso, in varied periods of my life.

????你覺得在中國傳統(tǒng)繪畫和西方繪畫的技藝上有什么沖突嗎？作品所表達(dá)的意境或作品的靈魂方面呢？

????北宋蘇軾曾有詩到：“論畫以形似，見于兒童鄰。作詩必此詩，定非知詩人。”他的意思是說，如果畫畫只能畫得像，這跟小孩子的水平差不多。畫要畫出神。在中國的造型藝術(shù)中，有“不似似之”這樣一個(gè)原則。太似則呆滯，不似為欺人，妙在似與不似之間，既不具象，又不抽象，徘徊于有無之間，斟酌于形神之際。關(guān)鍵并不在像與不像上，而在如何對(duì)待“形”的問題上，以神統(tǒng)形，以意融形，形神結(jié)合，乃直神超形越，這是一個(gè)藝術(shù)家所應(yīng)該做的。“不求明月盡，自有暗香來。”這聯(lián)古詩道出了中國藝術(shù)追求超越于形似之外的神韻的秘密。中國傳統(tǒng)繪畫用紙、毛筆、墨水，運(yùn)用淡淡的墨水、線條來表現(xiàn)文人的心中的精神世界，追求的是意境，講究筆墨以及對(duì)藝術(shù)家人格的要求等等。

????西方繪畫是用 布 、刀、油、油畫顏色，用明暗、光影、透視、解剖來表現(xiàn)，具有工匠氣。

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????Do you see any conflict between the different traditions of Chinese painting and Western art in technique, meaning or spirit?

????Su Shi, the well-known poet of the eleventh century, states that “only children would judge a painting with its faithfulness to nature; one who is only able to compose the poem must not be a real poet.” He means that if a painting becomes a dull duplication of reality it would be considered only as primitive. A painting has to capture the essence of its topic. A principle central to Chinese art is about the uncertain status of “l(fā)ikeness of form(s).” If a representation gets too close to its prototype it may look rigid. On the contrary, if it goes too distanced from its life model it becomes a fake. The perfection swings, then, between the “l(fā)ike” and the “not-like,” the abstract and the concrete, the full and the empty. The key issue is not so much about the “l(fā)ike”-“not-like” as about how to approach the issue of “formation.” It is the responsibility of an artist to regulate the form with his spirit and to have the meanings embodied in the form, to an extent that the spirit and the form are perfectly combined and complement each other. “Should you not be lavish in the moonlight but rather enjoy the subtle fragrance?” The verse tells the secret of classical Chinese art that strives for a spirit to transcend its physical constraints. The traditional Chinese painting employs only very basic materials and devices, such as light paper, soft brushes, plain ink and simplistic lines, for an extraordinarily rich mindscape of literati. In comparison, Western painting reveals strong curiosities about the craftsmanship. It relies on heavy canvas, metal knives, opaque oil paints and elaborated palettes for spectacular Chiaroscuro type of contrasts, vivid perspectives and analytic knowledge.

????現(xiàn)在你已經(jīng)被歸為中國當(dāng)代藝術(shù)頂極藝術(shù)家之一了。對(duì)你來說，你對(duì)其他人的作品有興趣嗎？你是否覺得自己是民族發(fā)展、國家發(fā)展或一個(gè)時(shí)代進(jìn)程中的一部分？

????比較關(guān)注作品，但不作任何評(píng)價(jià)。

????我是60年代出生的，親身經(jīng)歷了中國每一個(gè)十年的變化，我更關(guān)注作為普通的人的生存體驗(yàn)，在我的創(chuàng)作中現(xiàn)代人思想與情感的自然流露，或許比那些刻意的中國符號(hào)和中國方式更重要。

????You have been grouped with Chinese contemporary figurative artists. Do you feel any affinity with their work? Do you consider yourself part of an ethnic, national or generational Movement?

????I am interested in their works, but tend not to be judgmental.

????I was born in the 1960s and witnessed the change of the country in each crucial decade. I am more concerned with ordinary people’s life experiences. In my works, the natural revelation of contemporary thoughts and sentiments is far more important than those articulated Chinese icons and iconographies.

????一些藝術(shù)家喜歡獨(dú)自工作，而其他藝術(shù)家喜歡在一個(gè)相對(duì)熱鬧的工作室和他的助手們一起工作。那么你自己有什么偏好嗎？

????比較習(xí)慣獨(dú)自一人邊聽音樂邊工作。

????Some artists enjoy working alone, others in a busy studio with assistants. What is your ideal work environment?

????I got used to working alone while listening to music.

????在中國，你已經(jīng)是你這個(gè)時(shí)代非常優(yōu)秀的藝術(shù)家了。你的作品被世界上很多大的美術(shù)館和大收藏家收藏。在拍賣中，你的作品又以非常非常高的價(jià)格出售。那么，你自己怎樣來度量你自己的成功呢？在未來的十年中，你將要得到什么樣的成功呢？

????關(guān)于作品在拍賣中創(chuàng)造的高價(jià)，是完全出乎我的意料的。還在大學(xué)創(chuàng)作的時(shí)候，并不知道我的作品還可以賣。當(dāng)時(shí)，只是根據(jù)自己內(nèi)心的感受、需要來創(chuàng)作，把繪畫當(dāng)成了生活的一部分。

????在未來，不太希望人們過多關(guān)注我的作品的價(jià)格，而是希望我的作品被越來越多人所理解。希望我的作品能在不同的國家、民族中產(chǎn)生共鳴，并且要經(jīng)得起時(shí)間的考驗(yàn)。

????You are now one of the pre-eminent artists of your generation in China , your work is bought by major museums and collectors world-wide and has sold for extremely high prices at auction. How do you measure success for yourself and what type of success would you like to achieve in the next ten years?

????The auction records were out of my expectation. I was not even aware that my works are marketable in my college. At the time I only wished to paint with my heart. Painting is part of my life.

????In future, I hope that people will not be so concerned with the price of my work as with its interpretations. I wish that my works would be able to make senses to different nations and people. And their influences would be endurable.

????過去，你曾經(jīng)畫過毛澤東和一些西方偉人的畫像，來展現(xiàn)亞洲和西方的融合。那你認(rèn)為你的這套作品有任何政治和／或文化的批判嗎？

????作為一個(gè)中國藝術(shù)家，社會(huì)主義的思想教育不僅體現(xiàn)在我們的生活中同時(shí)也深深的影響了我們的藝術(shù)創(chuàng)作。我們是接受社會(huì)主義思想教育成長下的一代新人，社會(huì)主義現(xiàn)實(shí)主義的藝術(shù)方式是我們自我表達(dá)的開始，也是我們展望藝術(shù)未來的起點(diǎn)。這是一個(gè)無法回避的事實(shí)。在歷史的變革和藝術(shù)的表達(dá)之中，我們選擇的是直面社會(huì)的現(xiàn)實(shí)和現(xiàn)實(shí)所賦予我們的感受。這是我們所受的教育的根本，也是我們超越我們所受的教育的武器。正是中國特殊的社會(huì)背景與意識(shí)形態(tài)豐富了藝術(shù)家的創(chuàng)作。越來越多的藝術(shù)家關(guān)注社會(huì)、關(guān)注政治方面的問題；另一部分藝術(shù)家則更關(guān)注作為普通的人的生存體驗(yàn)。也許前者更能提示一個(gè)“中國”或者“中國當(dāng)代藝術(shù)”的存在，但對(duì)于我自己的作品來說，我更傾向于后者，更關(guān)注人的生存體驗(yàn)。

????In the past you have painted images of Mao Zedong and your prototypical "man" image appears to allude to a fusion of Asian and Western stereotypes. Do you see your work as political and/or cultural critique?

????As a Chinese artist, the socialist discourse and education is an intrinsic part of our life. It has made a deep impact on our artistic endeavors. The socialist realist way of doing art unfolds our journey as young artists. Meanwhile it is also a departing point for our future pursuits. This is a matter of fact and should not be bypassed. Regarding historic reforms and artistic expressions, we choose to face the reality and be true to our feelings that the reality brought about. This concerns both our primary trainings and a potential way to get out of it. The unique social circumstances and ideologies enrich the artistic spectrum of contemporary China. While more and more artists pay attentions to societal and political issues, there are also some people who are more concerned with the life experiences of ordinary persons. The former may help remind the observers of the existence of a “Chinese Art,” or “Chinese Contemporary Art,” as in their capital forms. But I am certainly prone to the latter. I have a deep concern with the substantial life experiences of ordinary people.

????如果讓你選擇在除了當(dāng)今這個(gè)時(shí)期，選擇在歷史中任何一個(gè)時(shí)期、任何一個(gè)國家，你會(huì)選擇在什么地方創(chuàng)作你的作品？

????我會(huì)選擇在20世紀(jì)初的法國，與保羅塞尚一起畫靜物。

????If you could choose to be an artist working in any milieu in any country at any period in history other than today, what would that milieu be?

????I would like to find myself in the early 20th century France, sitting with Paul Cezanne, doing still life stuff with him.

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